(May 27, 1960)

　　Marshal Montgomery (hereinafter referred to as Montgomery): Would you please tell me your views of the world situation today?

　　Chairman Mao Zedong (hereinafter referred to as Mao): The international situation is very good, not bad at all, nothing more than the whole world's opposition to the Soviet Union and China.

　　Montgomery: That is very bad.

　　Mao: It was created by the United States; not bad.

　　Montgomery: But it is very bad.

　　Mao: Not bad, but good. If they do not oppose us, that means we are like Eisenhower and Dulles. Naturally they should oppose us. They are doing it intermittently. Last year it was anti-China and this year anti-Soviet.

　　Montgomery: That is America's doing, not Britain's.

　　Mao: Mainly the United States. Is also instigated its stooges in various countries to do so.

　　Montgomery: That's why I say the situation is bad.

　　Mao: I think the present situation is neither rupture and hot war nor peaceful coexistence, but a third kind, coexistence in a cold war.

　　Montgomery: That is where the difficulty lies. It is difficult to coexist in a cold war.

　　Mao: We must solve this problem.

　　Montgomery: We have to find a solution.

　　Mao: But we must he prepared for two possibilities-to continue the cold war or to transform the cold war into peaceful coexistence. You are doing transformation work. We welcome it.

　　Montgomery: Yes, I feel we cannot go on living in this tense situation. Our children have been growing up in the cold war, which is bad for them. Therefore we must change the situation into peaceful coexistence. I do not wish to see my children grow up thinking that there must always be tension in the world.

　　Mao: This should be analyzed. A cold war has a good point as well as a bad point. The bad point is that it may change into a hot war.

　　Montgomery: possibly.

　　Mao: The good point is that it may turn into peaceful coexistence.

　　Montgomery: This cannot be called a good point of the cold war.

　　Mao: We say it is a good point, because the United States has created the tense situation and along with it has created many more opponents, for instance, in South Korea, Japan, Turkey and Latin American countries. Many countries object to American control. The United States has created this for itself.

　　Montgomery: I am not sure that the United States has created opponents in the Western bloc. There isn't anything like that in the Western bloc, though I hope that is the case.

　　Mao: I do not mean Europe, which is quite calm. I am referring to South Korea, South Vietnam, Japan, Turkey, Cuba and other Latin American countries, and Africa. In the case of Africa, not only is the United States to be blamed, but the European colonialists should be blamed in the first place. Nevertheless, the United States wants to replace the European colonialists there That is why I say the good point is that it makes these countries oppose U.S. imperialism, which is shaking the very foundation of the entire capitalist world.

　　Montgomery: The leader of the Western world is the United States. It is a very strange phenomenon that the Western countries fear their leader will lead them into war, because in the past two world wars the United States joined in when the wars were already fought halfway. Now the Western countries are afraid the United States will take them into war. We must change the situation whereby the leader of the Western pack and the two biggest countries of the Eastern bloc cannot get together for talks. For this reason, the West doubts the leadership of the United States.

　　Mao: So long as the leadership of the United States is not weakened and this leader strengthened by Britain and France, the situation is not likely to change.

　　Montgomery: I believe that such a situation will take place inevitably.

　　Mao: You are British and have been to France. You have been to the Soviet Union twice and now you are visiting China. Is there a possibility that Britain, France, the Soviet Union and China can reach consensus on some major international issues?

　　Montgomery: Yes, I think it is possible. But because of the leadership of the United States, Britain and France are afraid of doing so.

　　Mao: Make it a gradual course. We hope that your country will be stronger and France, too. We hope both of you will have a louder voice. In that case, the United States, West Germany and Japan will be contained.

　　The threat to you and France comes from the United States, West Germany, and Japan in the Far East. these three countries are also a threat to us. We do not feel Britain is a threat to us. Nor do we feel France is a threat to us. The threat to us comes mainly from the United States and Japan.

　　Montgomery: I feel the most important thing is, which step should we take first in the very complicated situation? I think that the first thing is to withdraw all foreign troops from other countries, and that takes time.

　　Mao: Mainly the American forces, part of which are in Europe and part in Asia. Britain has only four divisions stationed in West Germany.

　　Montgomery: Only three.

　　Mao: While the United States has one and a half million troops stationed overseas in 250 military bases, including those in West Germany, Britain, Turkey and Morocco. In the East, the United States has military bases in Japan, South Korea, Taiwan and the Philippines. It also has military personnel in South Vietnam Thailand and Pakistan.

　　Montgomery: The essential thing is for everybody to return to his home country. We are likely to ease the tense situation if we do the following: first, cease the military occupation of Europe; second, solve the Taiwan question. We can solve problems only one by one.

　　Mao: But now the people are doing it. The South Korean people, the Japanese people and the Turkish people are holding demonstrations. A coup just took place in Turkey and one cannot blame it on the Communists.

　　Montgomery: It is no good to accomplish all at one time. I am a soldier and I understand this. You are also a soldier and you should know it, too.

　　Mao: You have spent 35 years in the army and I only 25 years. You have spent more years in the army than I.

　　Montgomery: It's 52 years since I joined the army.

　　Mao: But I am still chairman of the Communist party's Military Commission.

　　Montgomery: That is very good. I have read your military works, which are very well written.

　　Mao: I do not know what is good in them. I learned from you. You have studied Clausewitz; so have I. He said that war is the continuation of politics in another form.

　　Montgomery: I have also read Genghis Khan, who emphasized mobility.

　　Mao: You haven't read The Art of War, written by Sun Zi 2,000 years ago, have you? There are lots of good things in it.

　　Montgomery: Does it have more military principles?

　　Mao: Some very good principles. It has a total of 13 chapters.

　　Montgomery: We should come back to the present world from the world 2,000 years ago.

　　Do you agree with this: When I return to London, I shall mobilize the world's media to put an end to the military occupation in Europe and solve the Taiwan question. Do you agree with starting with these two questions?

　　Mao: Good. I agree.

　　Montgomery: I can make the United States feel very embarrassed.

　　Mao: That also has two points. One is that you do as you said; the other is that the United States is very arrogant and concerted and does not give an inch.

　　Montgomery: I can make the United States feel very embarrassed.

　　Mao: It is possible.

　　Montgomery: I am very familiar with the American situation and I have many American friends who share my views.

　　Mao: Our policy has also made the United States feel embarrassed.

　　Montgomery: In the United States, many of my friends will agree with me. Many influential persons from the press will agree with me. I have never made the United States feel embarrassed, but now I want to make it feel so.

　　Mao: The United States now is very passive. Several hundred nooses have tied it up, for it has 250 military bases overseas.

　　Montgomery: I think I should speak out and say some impolite, candid words, to the Americans.

　　Mao: The United States has half its troops tied up in its bases. It has three million troops, with one and a half million stationed overseas, including in your Britain and China's Taiwan. We do not have a single military base or a single soldier overseas.

　　Montgomery: Do you agree with the talk between me and Zhou Enlai on the several principles that the United States should abide by? That is, first, the United States should recognize that Taiwan is part of China; second, the United States should withdraw from Taiwan; third, the Taiwan question should be negotiated between China and Chiang Kai-shek.

　　Mao: I know and I agree. We do not want to solve problems with the United States by means of war, but it is different with Chiang Kai-shek. Nevertheless, we shall not use force if he does not use it.

　　Montgomery: I agree on this.

　　Mao: The United States made a statement that it is willing to solve international issues through peaceful negotiations without the threat of force or the use of force. We have to wait and see if the statement is reliable or hypothetical. But Chiang Kai-shek has not made such a statement and he objects to negotiations with the Chinese Communist Party, whereas we long ago expressed our desire to solve problems through negotiations with Chiang Kai-shek.

　　Montgomery: Do you know Chiang Kai-shek?

　　Mao: He is my old friend. How could I fail to know him? Chiang Kai-shek came into power with help from us. Before he came into power, we had had contacts with Sun Yat-sen.

　　Montgomery: Chairman Mao and Chiang Kai-shek cooperated during the resistance against Japan, didn't you?

　　Mao: We cooperated for eight years in fighting the Japanese. Later he cooperated with the United States to fight us.

　　In the past, Britain and Japan were in an alliance to deal with Tsarist Russia. At that time the Far East was yours and China was mainly under your spheres of influence. When did it change? The change started in the First World War. After the Second World War, Britain was not able to influence Japan, which went under the influence of the United States. Britain and the United States have a gentleman's agreement to let China be under the sphere of influence of the United States. Mrs. Cripps informed me of this when she visited Yan'an. She said that Britain did not have a say on China issues. From then on, the Chinese people got rid of their hatred of Britain and turned the hatred toward the United States. After Japan's surrender, the United States had 90,000 troops in China.

　　Montgomery: The past hatred was against Britain.

　　Mao: It was against Britain, and at the same time it was against Japan, too.

　　Montgomery: We were once the worst foreign devils.

　　Mao: And the Japanese. Later they are the Japanese and the Americans.

　　Montgomery: Are you against the United States because it sent General Marshall to China to interfere with China's internal affairs?

　　Mao: Japan occupied a bigger part of China with help from the United States. Japan lacked iron and crude oil and had very little coal. The United States sent them to Japan on and on. But it fostered a force, causing the Pearl Harbor Incident.

　　Montgomery: You are not afraid of Japan today, are you?

　　Mao: Still a little bit, because the United States reinstates Japanese militarism.

　　Montgomery: Japan is a highly organized industrial country.

　　Mao: America's major base in the East is in Japan. On the 19th of this month the Japanese Diet forced through a military alliance with the United States.

　　Montgomery: Does Japan have any ulterior motive against China?

　　Mao: I think it does.

　　Montgomery: What kind of motive?

　　Mao: of course, it is mainly the United States'. There is one clause in the Japan-U.S. treaty which states that, according to Japanese interpretation, Japan's Far Eastern range includes China's coastal regions.

　　I have read Eden's memoirs. He talked about the Suez question, the Egyptian question and the question of the Southeast Asia Treaty Organization. He said that when the United States was organizing the Southeast Asia Treaty Organization, Britain wanted India to join, but the United States was firmly against it. +The United States said that if Britain had India join, the United States would like Chiang Kai-shek and Japan to join.

　　Montgomery: I have an interesting question to ask the Chairman: China probably needs 50 years to get everything in shape-the people's living standard greatly improved and housing problems, educational problems and construction problems all solved. What will China's future be by then?

　　Mao: In your view, we will be aggressive by then, is that right?

　　Montgomery: No. At least I hope you will not.

　　Mao: You are afraid that a country, when it gets strong, should be cautious not to commit aggression. The United States is a case in point.

　　Mao: Right, absolutely right. Britain was another case in point. Prior to the First World War the most powerful nation in the world was the British Empire. The United States was only a colony of Britain 180 years ago.

　　Montgomery: The historical lesson is that a country tends to be aggressive when it is very powerful.

　　Mao: A country is to be driven back when it commits aggression overseas. The North America of George Washington or the British Empire, which is more powerful? Yet, Washington with some shabby rifles drove back the British Empire in eight years.

　　Montgomery: The American Revolution was a good thing. Often revolution is a good thing. Without the American Revolution, Canada would not be today's Canada. The Chinese revolution was good, too. So revolution can be good.

　　Mao: You are very enlightened.

　　Montgomery: I am a soldier.

　　Mao: A foreign country for its people to live in; others should not occupy it, nor do they have the right or reason to squeeze in.

　　Montgomery: I agree.

　　Mao: It is a historical lesson that one will be driven out if one gets in.

　　Montgomery: What will be China's destiny 50years from now? By then China will be the world's most powerful country.

　　Mao: Not necessarily. Fifty years from now China's destiny is still 9.6 million square kilometers. China does not have a god, what it has is a Jade Emperor. Fifty years from now the Jade Emperor will still be reigning over 9.6 million square kilometers. We would be aggressors if we occupied an inch of land belonging to others. In fact, we are the "aggressed." The United States has occupied our Taiwan. But the United Nations gave us the title of "aggressor." You are facing an "aggressor." Aren't you afraid?

　　Montgomery: Before the revolution, you suffered aggression by us.

　　Mao: That was in the past, and now there is no hatred, only a little left over from history. We can establish diplomatic relations and exchange ambassadors with you if your government improves its attitude just a little bit.

　　Montgomery: I hope so.

　　Mao: Things will get easier if Britain, France, the Soviet Union and China can get closer.

　　Montgomery: I hope to see it.

　　Mao: Why can't you improve your attitude a little? Now the fundamental question is solved; you do not have formal diplomatic relations with Taiwan and have agreed that the Beijing government represents China. You have done the basic things. There are only a few questions-first, you side with the United States when the United Nations discusses the question of the representation of Chiang Kai-shed; second, you have a consulate in Taiwan; third, your government is closer to Taiwan and keeps its distance from China, and many people under Chiang Kai-shek have gone to London from Taiwan and were received by responsible people from your Foreign Office. Also, on the question of Tibet, your government stands on the American side. When a Tibetan rebel went to London, he was received by a responsible member of your Foreign Office.

　　Montgomery: I don't know about that. Tibet is within China.

　　Mao: You do not know many of the things done by your Foreign Office. So I think we cannot easily send an official representative to Britain and cannot exchange ambassadors with Britain.

　　Montgomery: It needs time and patience.

　　Mao: Our relations will improve with just a little improvement in your attitude.

　　Montgomery: I feel it is very interesting that you mentioned the question of Britain, France, the Soviet Union and China. I am on very good terms with Macmillan and De Gaulle. De Gaulle has invited me to go to Paris next month to meet him. I shall tell him about this. De Gaulle is a very good man.

　　Mao: we have two feelings about De Gaulle. De Gaulle--that he is not bad and that he has shortcomings.

　　Montgomery: Everybody has shortcomings.

　　Mao: We say he is not bad because he has the courage to be independent of the United States. He does not follow the baton of the United States at all. He does not allow the United States to establish air bases in France, and his field army does not obey the orders of the United States.

　　Montgomery: Nor does his navy.

　　Mao: The French fleet in the Mediterranean was under the command of the United States, but now he has retrieved his right to command. We appreciate all this very much.

　　Nevertheless, he has a very big shortcoming. He sent half his army to Algeria to carry out a war, which has tied up his hands and feet.

　　Montgomery: De Gaulle may say that Algeria is a province of France, and De Gaulle is legally right to say so.

　　Mao: But the Algerians do not agree and they ask for independence.

　　Montgomery: That is the trouble, so it must be solved. Legally, Algeria is a province of France. This issue must be settled.

　　Mao: The Algerian question should be resolved. Algerians told me that France has 900,000 troops in Algerian. I feel it is not that many, probably 500,000 or 600,000. It is very unfavorable for France to have such a large military expenditure in Algeria, every day, every month, every year.

　　Montgomery: This issue must be solved.

　　Mao: Yes, it must be. The French army is not good at fighting; in Vietnam they were no match for Ho Chi Minh's troops.

　　Montgomery: This issue must be settled.

　　Mao: They have been fighting in Algeria for six years. At first, Algeria had only 3,000 guerrillas, but now it has developed an army of 100.000.

　　Montgomery: This problem must be solved. De Gaulle's position, to a great extent, relies on a resolution of this issue. If he fails to solve it, he may have to step down.

　　Mao: It may decide whether he can have equal rights with Britain and the United States in Europe.

　　Montgomery: He already has them. He insisted on it.

　　Mao: Not completely. The United Stated does not buy it. We saw that Macmillan visited France. De Gaulle was solemnly received when he visited London. We were very happy to see it. We hope that your two countries will cooperate.

　　Montgomery: Macmillan maybe is the best political leader in the West.

　　Mao: Perhaps. At least he is better than Eisenhower.

　　Montgomery: Who could be better than he? I mean in the West.

　　Mao: We hope to see a stronger Britain.

　　Montgomery: He is the most intelligent and honest in the Western pack.

　　Mao: People can see that he is quite methodical.

　　Montgomery: My criterion for a political leader is whether or not he sacrifices his principles for his position. Do you agree with this criterion? If a leader sacrifices his principles for higher position, he is not a good man.

　　Mao: My opinion is this: A leader should be the spokesman for the great majority of people.

　　Montgomery: But he cannot sacrifice his principles.

　　Mao: This is a principle, that he should represent the will of the people.

　　Montgomery: He must lead the people to do what is best.

　　Mao: He must be for the people's interests.

　　Montgomery: But often the people do not know what is best and the leader must lead them to do what is best for them.

　　Mao: The people know. The people have the final say after all. It was because Cromwell represented the people that the king had to make concessions.

　　Montgomery: Cromwell represented only a few.

　　Mao: He was representing the capitalist class against the feudal lords.

　　Montgomery: But he lost. A few years after Cromwell died and was buried, his corpse was disinterred, beheaded and hanged on the roof of the Parliament building for several years.

　　Mao: But history has proved Cromwell had high prestige.

　　Montgomery: Without Cromwell, Britain world not be today's Britain.

　　Mao: Jesus was nailed to the cross, but he is highly respected.

　　Montgomery: That was only after he died. When he was alive, he did not have many followers.

　　Mao: George Washington represented the American people.

　　Montgomery: But he was assassinated.

　　Mao: Mohandas K.Gandhi of India was assassinated, but he represented the Indian people.

　　(From the vertim record)