(January 9,1965)
Edgar
Snow (hereinafter referred to as Snow): I read the
Chairman's military writings before I come to see
you. With reference to military experts in southern
Vietnam may I say the war in southern Vietnam has
entered the stage of mobile warfare, like the third
revolutionary civil war in China?
Chairman
Mao Zedong (hereinafter referred to as Mao): The
third revolutionary civil war which started in 1946
was the war of liberation for the whole country.
Chiang Kai-shek then had several million troops,
and we, more than one million. Up to this point
the war in southern Vietnam has not reached such
a scale. You can give the U.S. government some advice.
Why should it act like this? Wherever it goes, there
is war, and the people there learn how to fight.
Still it refuses to leave when it is told to do
so. Take Ngo Dinh Diem, for example. Both Ho Chi
Minh and I felt that he was not too bad-he ought
to have been helped to stay on for a few years.
However, some U.S. generals detested, overthrew
and killed him. Can there be peace under heaven
this way?
Snow:
Of course, the Liberation Army of South Vietnam
does not have such strength in manpower as the Eighth
Route Army or the subsequent Liberation Army, but,
likewise, the Saigon regime does not have so many
troops as Chiang Kai-shek.
Mao:
No, not so many, and they don't know how to fight.
They are even inferior to Chiang Kai-shek.
Snow:
Can one say that South Vietnam has sufficient strength
by itself to withstand external intervention and
oppose local reactionaries?
Mao:
I think it can. At least it has a more favorable
situation than we had during the second revolutionary
civil war. We had no direct foreign intervention
at that time. Southern Vietnam's advantage is the
presence of
20,000
Americans, who will educate most of the people,
including the soldiers and some officers in the
army. People opposed to the American troops are
not all Liberation Army, just as Ngo Dinh Diem didn't
approve of them. Some people in the government army
do not either.
Snow:
It is very obvious.
Mao:
They have bitter quarrels.
Snow:
Is it possible to persuade some of the southern
Vietnamese troops to join the Vietnamese Communists?
Mao:
I think it's possible just like Fu Zuoyi and Tao
Zhiyue of Xinjiang, Cheng Qian and Chen Mingren
of Hunan.
Snow:
Great changes have taken place in the international
situation since I last visited China. Africa is
awakening. Under such circumstances can I say the
current principal contradiction is the contradiction
between imperialism and the newly emerging forces
in Asia, African and Latin America? Is this contradiction
more important than that existing among imperialist
countries?
Mao:
What's your view? I am not very clear about that.
Unlike you, I have not visited many places. What
do you think? I want you to be my teacher and inform
me about the international situation.
Snow:
I believe you can answer this question. I'm unable
to do so, or I must wait to read you next book.
I can see from your writings that you have paid
special attention to these events. From these can
one conclude that the contradiction between imperialism
and the newly emerging forces in Asia, Africa and
Latin America is the principal one?
Mao:
I think the U.S. President has also said so. The
former President on many occasions mentioned that
there were relatively few troubles in the United
States, Canada and Western Europe, and it was the
Southern Hemisphere that was beset with serious
troubles. Kennedy talked about this question many
times. The special war and the local war he proposed
were to deal with this situation. Some sources said
he also read my writings on military affairs. It
may be true. When the Algerian issue was still without
a settlement, some Algerians asked me what to do
when not only they were using the theory in my writings
but the French were doing the same. It was Ferhat
Abbas, the then prime minister, who made these remarks;
he had visited China. I replied: "How can you make
use of my theory? I wrote on the basis of China's
experiences, so my theory is suitable only for a
people's war, not a war against the people. Chiang
Kai-shek also studied our materials, many of which
he acquired in the course of the war, but this by
no means retrieved his defeat. Likewise the French
were unable to save themselves from failure just
by reading my writings."
Now
we are also studying U.S. military writings. Maxwell
Davenport Taylor, the U.S. ambassador to southern
Vietnam and ex-chairman of the Joint Chiefs of Staff,
wrote the book The Uncertain Trumpet, from which
it seems that he did not quite approve of nuclear
weapons. He said nuclear weapons had not been used
in the Korean War or in the Chinese War of Liberation.
So he doubted whether one could win a war in future
by relying on these weapons. He stressed manpower
and funds for the army, but also the production
of nuclear weapons, letting the two develop in parallel.
He said an army was imperative and the U.S. must
maintain 800,000 to 900,000 troops. While the army
insists on manpower, the air force asks for more
aircraft and nuclear weapons, and the navy maintains
its own stand. Since Taylor represents the army,
he was contending for the army's top priority. Now
he has the opportunity to experiment in South Vietnam.
He went to South Vietnam last June and it has ken
less than a year, not as long as his stay in Korea.
He will get his experience. I have read the rules
and regulations for the U.S. troops to deal with
guerrilla warfare in South Vietnam, and they simply
enumerate a number of advantages and disadvantages
of guerrilla war and conclude that it is possible
to wipe out the guerrilla forces in South Vietnam.
Snow:
The American are politically weak, not militarily.
Mao:
That could be. The government of South Vietnam is
unpopular. Both the Ngo Dinh Diem regime and the
present one are divorced from the masses. It will
come to no good end to assist such unpopular governments.
The Americans refused to listen to not only my advice,
but yours as well.
Snow:
They didn't listen to me in the past, that's why
they have suffered so many defeats. We can see clearly
now that the military and economic gaps between
Asia, Africa and Latin America on one side and the
developed countries on the other have become increasingly
wider, and, meanwhile, what neocolonialism has done
makes the gaps even wider. Isn't this the principal
contradiction? Is it not only to resist the U.S.
but to adapt to this principal contradiction that
France changes its policy?
Mao:
I have talked with the French. I asked the French
National Assembly Delegation if the Third World
included France. They said no. Now one side consists
of developed countries; the other side, undeveloped
countries. The so-called developed countries were
not so unanimous; they have never been so. For instance,
two world wars took place among the developed United
Kingdom, France, Germany, Italy and Japan. Weren't
the developed countries fighting one another? Their
aim was to contend for the so-called undeveloped
countries. Why did they want to fight? Could they
not sleep or eat? You haven't taken part in that
war; your former President participated in the Second
World War, and so did the incumbent President.
Snow:
I was in Russia as a war correspondent then.
Mao:
How long did you stay there?
Snow:
Two and a half years. I was in the United Kingdom
and France after the war. I never kill anybody,
but I was almost killed on several occasions.
Mao:
How dangerous! But you still went to the front?
Snow:
A war correspondent is an accessory of war. I didn't
go to the front in Russia, but I went to the front
in Germany and France. I visited Stalingrad when
it was under German attack.
Mao:
Before or after the attack?
Snow:
At the time of the surrender of Hitler's troops.
Mao:
Hitler was then really terrific, having occupied
almost the whole of Europe, excepting east of the
Moscow-Leningrad-Stalingrad front. And not counting
United Kingdom. He occupied North Africa as well.
However, he blundered: If after the Dunkirk evacuation
his troops had immediately followed into the United
Kingdom, the latter would have been at the end of
its tether .A British prime minister told Premier
Zhou Enlai in Geneva that the United Kingdom had
no more troops at all then, and it was vulnerable
everywhere. However, the Germans hesitated to drive
forward just because of the English Channel.
Snow:
Hitler was impatient to attack Russia at that time.
Is there any hope for improvement in Sino-U.S. relations?
Mao:
I think there is, but it needs time. Probably it
will not be realized during my lifetime, as God
will summon me before long. Perhaps you will be
able to witness it. According to dialectics, life
is limited after all.
Snow:
You look very healthy, Chairman.
Mao:
I have prepared many times, but always failed to
meet death. What could I do? On many occasions death
seemed to be at my elbow, including the dangers
during war that you have mentioned. Once, a guard,
who was at my side, was killed by a bomb, and his
blood splashed on me. However, the bomb just didn't
hit me.
Snow:
This happened when you were in Yan'an?
Mao:
A lot of times. Once was on the Long March. After
crossing the Dadu River, we were bombed by aircraft
and the chief of my guards was killed, but the blood
didn't splash on me that time.
You
know that I was a teacher in an elementary school
before. I never thought of fighting a battle or
of organizing the Communist Party. I was then a
democrat, almost like you. Later on, I didn't know
why, I was engaged in the work of the Communist
Party. In short, this was independent of our will.
China was oppressed by imperialism, feudalism and
bureaucratic capitalism; and there was also the
oppression of warlords at one time. This is a fact.
Snow:
The objective conditions made revolution inevitable.
Such conditions no longer exist. What will the next
generation do, since conditions in China have changed?
Mao:
I don't know either. That's the business of the
next generation. No one knows what they will do.
However, there are a couple of possibilities: One
is to carry on the revolution; the other is to negate
the revolution, do evil deeds, make peace with imperialism,
allow Chang Kai-shek to return to the mainland,
and side with a handful of domestic counterrevolutionaries.
This is called counterrevolution. You ask my opinion;
certainly I don't wish to see the emergence of a
counterrevolution. What will happen will be decided
by future generations. Taking a long view, future
generations will be wiser than we, just as people
of the capitalist period are wiser and better than
those of the feudal period. Feudalism didn't exist
in the United States, but it existed in Europe.
Snow:
It can't be said that the U.S. was entirely free
of feudalism. One cause of the Civil War was anti-feudalism.
Mao:
It was a contention of labor forces; the so-called
liberation of Negro slaves in fact meant opening
the labor market.
Snow:
Although the period of feudal domination in the
south was not long, the feudal ideology was quite
deep-rooted in the U.S.
Mao:
The south is now relatively more backward than the
north.
Snow:
Do you still think that the atomic bomb is a paper
tiger?
Mao:
I was just using a figure of speech. It will kill
people if it used. However, it will be eliminated
finally, and then it will turn into a paper tiger,
because it is no more!
Snow:
You must have heard someone say,"Chairman Mao maintains
that in case of nuclear war, the people of many
countries will be completely wiped out, but China
will still have several hundred million people left."
Mao:
What do you think?
Snow:
In effect you have indirectly replied to the question.
It was also mentioned in an article about polemics
between China and the Soviet Union.
Mao:
I've forgotten the reply.
Snow:
I'm afraid I've forgotten too, but in my memory
it was referred to in an article as a lie, an assertion
planted on you.
Mao:
What did it say?
Snow:
It said in case of nuclear war, China would sti11
have several hundred million people left. A Yugoslav
citizen alleged you told him this when he visited
China in the latter half of the fifties.
Mao:
I don't remember it, but perhaps I said so. I remember
saying only this: We don't want war. We have no
atomic bomb. If some other country plans to launch
a nuclear war, the whole world may suffer disaster.
A disaster will cause casualties. How many casualties?
Nobody knows. There must be some. I didn't mean
China alone. I didn't believe the atomic bomb could
destroy all mankind. If all were destroyed, there
would be no government to make peace with. This
was mentioned in one of the conversations I had
with Nehru in Beijing. He told me that he was the
director of the Atomic Energy Commission of India
and he knew the destructive power of the atomic
bomb. I said it might not be so serious as he asserted,
that no government would exist to make peace with
after a nuclear war. If one government falls, another
government will rise to succeed it. Somebody invariably
rises. I didn't say the whole world would perish.
I heard that there is a U.S. film called On the
Beach.
Snow:
It is a fictitious novel, describing the destruction
of all mankind.
Mao:
How awful! Khrushchev has said there is a kind of
bomb, something to do with lasers, in his grasp
that could destroy all mankind, all animals and
plants. Later he repeatedly denied saying this.
I never deny what I have said. Please don't deny
this alleged rumor on my behalf.
Snow:
I also mentioned in my book that you might have
said that, aiming to find out the response of the
other party.
Mao:
This was because a politician of a big power asserted
there would be no government then. I was refuting
his assertion.
Snow:
So it was referred to for the first time under such
circumstances?
Mao:
Yes, it was in October 1954. The Americans said
something about the formidable destructive power
of the atomic bomb, and Khrushchev echoed with an
arrogant air. They have all surpassed me. I am lagging
behind them. Am I right? Rather backward. I read
the recent reports on the visit of a number of U.S.
experts to Bikini. After landing, they found that
rats were running here and there as usual, fish
were swimming in the lake, the water from the well
was still drinkable, plants were flourishing and
birds abundant. They had to chop down trees to open
a way into the island. This island underwent experiments
with nuclear explosions for 12 years, and the experts
visited it after six more years. I think creatures
had a hard time there within the first one or two
years after the explosions, then began to propagate
again. Why were the rats not affected at all? Because
they hid themselves in holes underground. Why are
the plants still so abundant? I judge a lot must
have perished, whereas the survivors again started
to grow, then flourished after a few years.
Snow:
I have seen a film about how all creatures were
destroyed not long after the explosion of a hydrogen
bomb. Sea turtles came ashore to lay eggs, which
failed to breed baby turtles.
Mao:
They might be able to breed after some years, but
I don't know whether it would be the same for human
beings.
Snow:
Beetles have the strongest vitality.
Mao:
In short, the atomic bomb was only a paper tiger
so far as the birds, trees and sea turtles in that
place were concerned. Perhaps human beings are a
bit weaker than they.
Snow:
Human beings are more likely to suffer from toxins
made by themselves. The ants consider they rule
the world; they are the masters of the world.
Mao:
In the eyes of the ants, all men are mere trifles.
Ants are relatively big animals. Germs do what men
fail to do. The world's total population is only
some three billion. A pedologist told me that each
mu of land contains 400 kilograms of germs. There
would be no soil or plant growth without germs.
Therefore, don't despise them just because they
are so small; they can enter the body of every man,
whether he's a president or a journalist. They are
very formidable.
Snow:
Germs can't be seen at all.
Mao:
A man can't live apart from germs. There are innumerable
kinds of germs in the human body, and according
to medical science, germs such as the colon bacillus
and fungi in the mouth cavity are extremely beneficial
to human beings. We have identical views on this
question. The investigation by U.S. experts on Bikini
Island is good data. We have published the data
and distributed them to the deputies to the National
People's Congress for their reading.
Snow:
Is this an open report?
Mao:
No, it was written by a Chinese, citing the data
of the U.S. experts, and published in News World
in Hong Kong.
Snow:
Nevertheless, you don't think nuclear war to be
a good thing?
Mao:
Right. Better not launch nuclear war at all. Use
conventional weapons if you want to wage war.
Snow:
It seems that the Asian, African and Latin American
regions have become more and modernized, and revolutions
there are developing more and more vigorously.
Mao:
Possibly.
Snow:
Can revolutions in Asian, African and Latin American
countries achieve complete success without a third
world war breaking out?
Mao:
It is hard to say. Maybe it requires a relatively
long period of time.
Snow:
China has given its support to Indonesia's withdrawal
from the United Nations. Will this not set a precedent
for other countries?
Mao:
It is the United States which has set a precedent.
In order to prevent China from entering the U.N.,
it has proposed that China can only enter with a
two-thirds majority vote. Isn't China doing quite
well without being in the U.N.? Indonesia has withdrawn
from the U.N. because it feels that it has not benefited
from participation in the organization.
Snow:
Can I say China does not want to join the United
Nations?
Mao:
No. If two thirds of the U.N. members expect us
to join that organization, and we refuse to do so,
won't they call us nationalistic? However, we demand
that the U.N. repeal its slander of China as an
aggressor and at the same time designate the U.S.
an aggressor. Do you think this argument will work?
How could China join the U.N. in the capacity of
an aggressor country? The U.S. won't agree either
if we call it an aggressor. Hence we don't wish
to join the U.N. at present, and likewise the U.S.
is not willing we participate, which might prove
a hindrance. Both sides agree to a certain extent
on this point. Therefore, it is better to let Generalissimo
Chiang Kai-shek stay and represent China in the
U.N. for the time being! Well, please don't cover
this part of our conversation, because we have not
yet made it public.
Snow:
Would it be possible to have a U.N. without the
U.S.?
Mao:
The Afro-Asian Conference was held without the participation
of the U.S.
Snow:
There is also the Games of the Newly Emerging Forces.
Mao:
China is a big country and we have a lot of our
own affairs to take care of. We are rather busy.
China itself is a U.N. Our U.N. has received you;
has that U.N. received you yet? When do you plan
to leave China.
Snow:
After a few days. When I return to the United States
this time perhaps Johnson will let me see him. Have
you any message for him?
Mao:
No.
Snow:
I can take him this word as well.
At
present, China stresses maintaining a revolutionary
spirit among the young people. The important thing
lies in setting an example for similar countries
and promoting revolution in other countries, so
that the Chinese revolution finds final security,
doesn't it?
Mao:
On the last point, it is difficult to say. What
security do you think there is? Aren't people now
talking about disarmament? But in which year will
it actually be carried out? Aren't they talking
about general and complete disarmament? The Soviet
Union talked about it in the past, and now the U.S.
is talking about it. We also agree with general
disarmament. In fact, the present situation is general
and complete expansion of armament instead of disarmament,
which is receiving only lip service.
Snow:
The North Atlantic Treaty Organization is doing
just that. Owing to the proliferation of nuclear
weapons, every country is crying for its own atomic
bomb.
Mao:
Only China is prohibited from having one. We don't
wish to possess many atomic bombs. Why do we need
many? A few will do, just for scientific experiment.
Snow:
You said before that in breaking down the local
tyrants and evil gentry in Jiangxi, they called
Mr. Soviet a very bad fellow, while throughout the
course of the Chinese revolution, the West complained
that Mr. Socialism had made a lot of trouble. Now
they put the blame on China's atomic bomb.
Mao:
This shows that my reputation and that of the Chinese
government and the Chinese Communist Party are not
good. Why should they oppose China and launch an
anti-Chinese tide? When we were still unprepared,
suddenly Kennedy was no more. When the Vietnamese
people were likewise in bewilderment, Ngo Dinh Diem
was no more. Another example is Khrushchev's sudden
ouster. God knows! It was done so thoroughly that
all his books and Pictures were removed overnight.
Snow:
Quite a number of European parties have criticized
the Soviet party for expelling Khrushchev by such
means.
Mao:
We don't have many Khrushchev pictures here, but
Khrushchev's books are in our bookstores as before.
How can the world be without a Khrushchev! His spirit
will haunt us, and persons of his ilk will always
exist.
Snow:
Can we say the proportion of the faults and merits
of the new Soviet leadership is 30 percent to 70
percent, i.e., they are 70 percent correct?
Mao:
You mean the present Soviet leadership? It's hard
to say. Some people say they are engaged in Khrushchevism
without Khrushchev.
Snow:
Has there been any improvement in Sino-Soviet relations
since Khrushchev fell out of power?
Mao:
Perhaps a little, but not much. His fall caused
us to lose an object of criticism in our articles.
Snow:
Some Russians say a personality cult exists in China.
Mao:
I am afraid there is a bit. It is alleged that Stalin
had a personality cult, Khrushchev not in the least,
and the Chinese have one. There is some truth in
this. Khrushchev was ousted most probably because
he lacked a personality cult.
Snow:
I take my acquaintance with you, Chairman, as a
great honor, and it also brings me a lot of personal
advantages. I hope I can impart your thinking to
other people. I sincerely feel that your achievements
are great. Of course, I don't mean that everything
is ideal, but in brief, you have done many great
deeds. It is regrettable that China and the U.S.,
as well as the Chinese people and the American people,
are separated because of historical reasons.
Mao:
The two countries will get close to each other through
historical reasons as well. We must wait; this will
invariably come.
Snow:
I don't think a major war will break out between
China and the U.S.
Mao:
Maybe you are right. U.S. troops may come to China
and they may not. They will and things not so easy
if they come, and we won't let them reap any benefit.
Perhaps they won't come because of this. You can
rest assured, as I have said before, that we shall
not attack the U.S.
Snow:
Some Americans say the war in southern Vietnam will
be extended to the north.
Mao:
Dean Rusk recently corrected his version, saying
he never made such remarks.
Snow:
Certainly I don't think the American government
will listen to me. A U.S. Congressman called Frank
Church suggested that a debate take place on the
U.S. policy of interference in the affairs of other
countries. He is John's good friend. The rulers
of the United States don't understand you, and I'm
afraid I myself don't understand you either.
Mao:
How so? We shall not make war beyond China, and
we shall fight in defense only if the U.S. comes
and attacks us. History will be witness. Why should
we go out to attack other people while we are so
much occupied with our own affairs? That would be
committing a crime. South Vietnam doesn't require
our presence there at all. They are able to handle
the situation themselves.
Snow:
The Americans fighting the war in South Vietnam
say China will occupy all of Southeast Asia if they
withdraw from South Vietnam.
Mao:
How occupy? By our troops or by the local people?
The Chinese had better occupy China.
Snow:
Are there Chinese troops in South Vietnam?
Mao:
No.
Snow:
Rusk said the U.S. will withdraw from South Vietnam
if China and North Vietnam abandon their aggressive
policy.
Mao:
We have no aggressive policy to abandon. We haven't
committed any aggression. But we do support revolutions;
we have to. We shall issue statements and hold meetings
to express our support wherever there is revolution.
Imperialism dislikes this. We are fond of prattle
and empty talk, but send no troops. Can this be
called aggression, whereas sending troops is not
aggression?
Snow:
Formerly people said China was supported by Russia,
and now they say South Vietnam is supported by China.
Mao:
The victory of the Chinese civil war chiefly relied
on U.S. weapons, which proved we had no official
support from foreign counties. In fact, South Vietnam
obtained their arms from the U.S. In addition, they
have often captured soldiers of the South Vietnam
puppet regime to replenish their manpower since
last year. It is like us in the past-one source
of our manpower was Chiang Kai-shek's troops. They
were forced to be soldiers and had undergone some
training, so once they were captured, they joined
our troops in fighting.
Snow:
Why?
Mao:
Because they were pressganged by the Kuomintang,
and they hated the Kuomintang.
Snow:
There is one more point: The Chinese Communist Party
and people throughout the country are in accord.
Mao:
It was under the pressgang of the Kuomintang that
poor peasants became soldiers. Our method was to
can meetings for them to pour out their grievances
and hold memorial ceremonies for the souls of the
dead. If a person was murdered by the Kuomintang,
his name would be written on a piece of paper as
a memorial to his soul. After settling matters this
way, they would join our troops right away and change
caps. Why did they wear our caps? Simply because
they were afraid of being mistaken for Kuomintang
soldiers if they were killed. With this cap on their
head, they would be identified as our men.
Snow:
To a great extent, South Vietnam is now in such
circumstances.
Mao:
There must be revolution wherever there is oppression.
The course of socialist revolution is just like
this. When capitalism developed to a certain stage,
the bourgeoisie rose against feudalism. The feudal
system didn't exist in the U.S., but there was colonialism-Great
Britain. As soon as U.S. capitalism developed to
a certain stage, it rose against Britain. For people
the world over, who will rise to revolution without
being subjected to oppression? The American War
of Independence was caused by British oppression.
Is it almost 200 years since the American War of
Independence?
Snow:
The slogan put forward by many revolutionaries during
the War of Independence was the same as that raised
during the French Revolution later on. The U.S.
was the only republic in the world then. The view
of the U.S. of the European countries at that time
is identical with the U.S. view of China today.
Mao:
Washington had a bad reputation, so we can post-humously
admit him to the Party.
Snow:
The Chinese Communist Party would consider him a
reactionary, therefore wouldn't let him join it.
Mao:
Being unable to join the Communist Party is a fact,
because there wasn't any Communist Party at that
time. Still we must acknowledge the revolutionary
role played by Washington. He played an advanced
role, very progressive, and Abraham Lincoln as well.
Snow:
Lincoln was a self-contradictory man and, in the
meantime, a great man. He was a humanist. Before
I leave China, may I ask you, Chairman, to say a
few words to the American people who entertain good
feelings toward China?
Mao:
I wish them progress. If I wished them liberation,
perhaps some people wouldn't agree. I just wish
liberation to those who are themselves aware that
they have not yet been liberated and have difficulties
making a living.
Snow:
Your remarks are excellent, Chairman, particularly
with reference to what you said before, i.e., China
will not go out to attack other people, and China
is occupied with its own affairs. I myself have
seen this point.
Mao:
Whether the Americans need reliberation or not is
their own business. They are to be liberated not
from British domination, but from the domination
of monopoly capital.
Snow:
Won't you make some suggestions for the U.S. President?
Mao:
It is difficult. The hands of Americans have stretched
out to the whole world. We advised them a long time
ago to restrain a little. As a rule, they refuse
to listen.
Snow:
Almost half the U.S. troops are stationed abroad.
It seems that a number of U.S. troops in foreign
countries have become hostages of the local people.
Mao:
This puts the U.S. government into a dilemma: It
is embarrassed to quit and likewise embarrassed
not to quit. To withdraw is difficult and refusing
to withdraw is also difficult. They will send troops
wherever there is any rustle of leaves in the wind,
thus they have to be transferred here and there.
Sometimes we raised a hue and cry on purpose -for
instance, bombarding Jinmen with a few shells. The
U.S. felt the Seventh Fleet was not strong enough,
just because of these few shells, and hastened to
shift part of the Sixth Fleet, in addition to so
some naval forces from San Francisco. Then we stopped
our shelling, and the American troops had to go
back, as they had nothing to do after coming here.
Therefore, the American troops are subject to transfer
at our mere beckoning, a bit like Chiang Kai-shek's
troops.
Snow:
They have to have something to do, at any rate.
Mao:
They won't remain idle. U.S. monopoly capitalists
just want to go somewhere to help the reactionaries.
They have to help and they have to quit in the end,
like the way they helped Chiang Kai-shek. American
troops were stationed in Shanghai, Qingdao, Tianjin,
TangShan and Beijing in the past, but they all left
subsequently in a hurry. They lost no time leaving
when they were still a great distance from our troops.
Britain was rather foolish then; it sent warships
to Nanjing to transport its soldiers, which were
hit by us. The crux of the matter was that there
was in China such a disappointing fellow as Chiang
Kai-shek, who always suffered defeat, and in the
meantime there was the formidable Liberation Army.
If it hadn't been for these conditions, the Americans
would have stayed.
Snow:
Do you mean that the Americans will withdraw from
South Vietnam only under identical circumstances?
Mao:
The American troops will not leave South Vietnam
now, they may continue to fight for another one
or two years. But if they and the war insipid and
get tired of it, perhaps they will leave.
Snow:
If I didn't misunderstand Premier Zhou Enlai's words,
I remember that he told me it would be impossible
to settle the issue of South Vietnam through negotiations
before the withdrawal of the American troops. Is
that right?
Mao:
I don't know what Premier Zhou said. I am afraid
we have to be prepared for two possibilities.
We can negotiate either before or after withdrawal.
Or no negotiations at all; let South Vietnam expel
the American troops. They may hang on there even
after negotiations, as in Korea. We had such experience
in Geneva. After the Geneva Conference the U.S.
sent troops to replace the French in South Vietnam.
To be honest, the presence of U.S. troops in South
Vietnam is a good thing; it will temper the people
and strengthen the liberation army. To have just
a Ngo Dinh Diem won't do, just as to have only
a Chiang Kai-shek wouldn't do in China; not until
the greater part of China was occupied by Japan
and, moreover, the occupation lasted eight years,
could the Chinese people be tempered.
*This
is the main part of Mao Zedong's talk with Edgar
Snow, an American writer and a friend to China.
(From
the verbatim record)
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