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(October
22,1960)
Edgar
Snow (hereinafter referred to as Snow): On the question
of Taiwan, Chairman, I wonder if you have read about
a heated debate in the United States between John
F.Kennedy and Richard Nixon the questions of Mazu
and Jinmen and American policy on the far east.
Chairman
Mao Zedong (hereinafter referred to as Mao): I have
read some.
Snow:
The debate was so heated that the two names of Mazu
and Jinmen often appeared in the newspapers so someone
made a joke about it, saying the people had forgotten
the two candidates' names, assuming they were called
Mazu and Jinmen instead of Kennedy and Nixon.
Mao:
It is because the Americans are afraid of war that they
use this question for their election campaign. These
two islands are very close to the mainland and Kennedy
makes use of this point to win votes.
Snow:
Nevertheless, it shows there is a great difference of
opinion among the American public on this question.
Usually people are indifferent about an election campaign,
but this question has aroused great interest, for many
Americans are against the current U.S. policy. So this
is the real issue.
Mao:
Nixon has his own idea, saying that these two islands
must be protected. He also wants to get more votes.
This question has given life to the American election
campaign. Nixon has gone too far, as if the U.S. government
had an obligation to protect the two islands. The U.S.
State Department says that it has no obligation to do
so. Whether to protect or not depends on the situation
and is to be decided by the president under the circumstances
at the time. This is the statement Eisenhower made two
years ago.
Snow:
Someone asked this question: Under the American Constitution
the new president will not take office until the January
following his election in early November. If Kennedy
is elected and China occupies Jinmen and Mazu on November
6 what's to be done then?
Mao:
They asked the question in this way?
Snow:
Eisenhower remains president until next January.
Mao:
We do not look at the two islands that way. We have
made public statements on the question, that is, let
Chiang Kai-shek hold the two islands. We will not intercept
their supplies. We can even send supplements if they
do not have enough provisions. What we want is the whole
Taiwan region. Taiwan and the Penghu Islands, including
Jinmen and Mazu are all china's territory. As for the
two islands, they are now in Chiang Kai-shek's hand,
let him told them. It seems that the American presidential
candidates are not clear about this.
Snow:
Quite possibly.
Mao:
There isn't much to be debated on this question. We
want not only the two islands, Jinmen and Mazu, but
Taiwan and all the Penghu Islands. This question may
annoy us for a long time. It has already been 11 Years,
and it is quite possible it will drag on for twice that
many years or even longer, because the U.S. government
is not willing to give up Taiwan. It does not want to
give it up, and we do not attack it, so we have had
negotiations, first in Geneva, then in Warsaw. We shall
not attack Taiwan while the U.S. is there. We want to
solve the issue through negotiations rather than force.
The U.S. government understands this. Nor shall we attack
Jinmen and Mazu; we have stated this openly. Therefore,
there is no danger of war and the United States may
keep its occupation of Taiwan with its mind at ease.
Eleven years have gone. After another 11 years and still
another-that will be 33 years-maybe in the 32nd year
the United States will give up Taiwan.
Snow:
I think the Chairman wants to wait until Chiang Kai-shek's
soldiers have become three-legged men.
Mao:
It is mainly a question of the U.S. government, not
of Chiang Kai-shek or others. If Chiang Kai-shek's men
become three-legged, there will still be men with two
legs in Taiwan. It is easy to find human beings.
Snow:
Is the Chairman serious in thinking it will take 11
years or 22 years for the United States to change its
stand? The American situation develops very fast and
it will change very fast too. Of course the change has
something to do with outside factors. All in all, there
will be changes in the situation.
Mao:
Maybe. In your article you mentioned one point: that
we were more interested in becoming a member of the
United Nations than in having the United States recognize
China, as if we were more interested in getting into
the United Nations. I do not see it that way and it
cannot be said so. We instead of Chiang Kai-shek should
represent China in the United Nations. It should have
been that way long ago, but the U.S. government organized
the majority of countries to block our entry. It does
not mean there is no good in this. We are not eager
to get into the United Nations. Some other countries
are eager to have us admitted into the United Nations
of course, excluding the United States. Now Britain
has no choice but to follow the United States, but its
original intention may be the one you talked about,
that is, we shall be lawless if we are kept outside
the United Nations, it would be better if we were bound
by United Nations' rules. Quite a few countries hope
China will observe the rules. You know we were guerrillas
and accustomed to being unrestrained. It is hard to
obey so many rules, isn't it? We shall not suffer any
loss if we do not get into the United Nations. What
are the good points if we get into the United Nations?
Of course, there are some, but not necessarily many.
Some countries strive for membership in the United Nations
and we don't quite understand their mood. Our country
is a united nation. One of our provinces is bigger than
some countries.
Snow:
I often say so.
Mao:
They try to impose an economic blockade against us,
just like what the Kuomintang did in the past. We were
very grateful to the Kuomintang for setting up an economic
blockade against us and making us find a way out by
going in for production in our bases. The Kuomintang
provided us with pay in 1937, 1938 and 1939, but started
blockading us in 1940. We wanted to thank them for forcing
us to go in for production and not rely on them. Now
the United States has also imposed a blockade on us,
which has some good aspects.
Snow:
I remember that in 1939 the Chairman told me"We thank
the Kuomintang in eight respects. First, because the
Communist Party developed too slowly, so the Kuomintang
carried out an economic blockade to help us develop
faster." Another respect was since the Communist troops
had very few new recruits, Chiang Kai-shek put more
people in prison, and so on and so forth. Later these
points of the Chairman were proved correct. In fact,
the more the people are oppressed, the faster the people's
strength develops.
Mao:
That is true.
Snow:
In one of you articles you said that the law of imperialism
is to oppose colonized people's efforts for freedom,
to fail, to oppose again, to fail again. The blockade
against China was certain to fail, but they have never
given up this way of thinking. Now they are brooding
over an economic blockade against Cuba. I think it will
be a failure, too. It is very hard to comprehend what
they want to gain from it. Anyway, it seems that they
will impose an embargo against Cuba.
Mao:
Now it is a partial embargo. It has no big influence
on Cuba. It is possible that they will expand to a total
embargo, which will have a bigger impact, but it is
impossible for them to block Cuba to death. Cuba will
find a way. The situation for Cuba today is after all
better than our situation in Yan'an.
Snow:
I want to ask another question. In ten to twenty years
you will achieve your goal of industrialization. By
then the world's economic foundation will have seen
tremendous changes, as nuclear power and electronics
are applied extensively. Of course by then, maybe earlier,
China will have nuclear power. Some Americans think
it will be far in the future when China develops nuclear
power. However, they fear China will use it irresponsibly
once it has the atom bomb.
Mao:
No, we won't. How can an atom bomb be used irresponsibly?
That won't do. We can't use it irresponsibly if we have
it. To use it irresponsibly means committing a crime.
Snow:
Even though there is no peace treaty or agreement between
China and the U.S., and some Americans think that the
United States and China are in fact in a semiwar situation,
world peace every day relies on China's sense of responsibility,
which is first for the Chinese people and then for the
whole world, of which China is a part. Do you agree
with me on this?
Mao:
Right. We hold our responsibility for wor1d peace no
matter whether the United States recognizes us or not
and no matter whether we are admitted by the United
Nations or not. We shall not act in a lawless way like
the Monkey King, who created havoc in the heavens, because
we are not in the United Nations. We want to maintain
world peace with no world war. We hold that problems
between countries should not be settled by means of
war. Anyway, the maintenance of world peace is not only
China's responsibility, but also the United States'.
Resolution of the Taiwan question is China's internal
affair, which we always stick to. We shall not attack,
even though it is so. Will we attack when the Americans
are there? No, we won't. Will we attack for certain
after the Americans leave? Not necessarily. We want
to solve the Taiwan question by peacefu1 means. Many
places in China were resolved by peaceful means. Beijing
was liberated peacefully, so were Hunan, Yunnan and
Xinjiang. There is hearsay outside China that the Chinese
Communist Party, among the communist parties in various
countries, is especially naughty, disobedient, unreasonable
and reckless. You have been in China for a few months
and those words cannot fully be trusted. You said that
some outsiders say China is like a big barracks and
a big prison. Indeed, it was so in Chiang Kai-shek's
China. Then Beijing, Nanjing and Shanghai were indeed
barracks. Since liberation China, through reform and
education, has become quite different from what it was.
Snow:
I can surely say that my impression is that there
are big differences now.
(From
the verbatim record)
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